DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on September 6th 2011, 7:45 pm

I am running a mix of Bio balls, bio sponges,and a Deep sand bed Sump

The overflow goes into the DSB first and skimmer then bio filter pad and the bio balls and returned..

First time using DSB and Im impressed all the worms and critters are doing there job great ,I may remove the bio balls once the system settles .Ive had no out of control levels of anything, most the food and waste settles on the DSB first and bugger all goes over to the filter pad ,I have a few shrimp etc in there as well to eat larger waste on surface ..

I dont think I will ever use a bio ball only system again ..

I used sand from 3 layers I hand pumped with a bait pump ,I seperated the sand into 3 buckets top ,middle ,bottom and place it in the sump in this order and finished it with some rock and seeded it with live pipi's and worms and surface feeders like shrimp,Amphipods and Chitons..

Once it settles I should only have to clean DSB surface once or twice a year..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on September 6th 2011, 8:10 pm

Pictures would be nice. Are the bio-balls in a separate compartment from the actual sand bed or not? If they are, it would be beneficial to keep them since removing them would remove any beneficial bacteria already adapted to your aquarium's conditions and take away from your tanks natural filtration system.

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on September 6th 2011, 9:01 pm

Separate compartment ..I have pic's without DSB of the sump..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on September 6th 2011, 9:10 pm

Well then I would probably keep them. It can't do any harm. Did you construct the sump yourself?

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on September 6th 2011, 10:08 pm

Sump and 1/2 ctc overflow all DIY out of old shop front glass ,and a first time cutting and drilling glass for me.Was alot easier than I thought it would be and cheap glass was free and the oil filled glass cutter and hole drills cost $20..

I read that bio balls can cause high nitrate levels once there a few months old while DSB's control it...But thats tropical marine so I used both ,I use filter pads also so the bio's dont get to dirty as I have alot of weed waste because of the Ludrick (Girella tricuspidata,Girellidae family).

I will take the insulation I have on the sump away soon and take photo's ,the above are the first fill, test and flush photo's.
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on September 8th 2011, 12:44 am

Nice! Bioballs can cause high nitrate levels, but that is in tropical tanks. Temperate filtration is different to the degree that canister filters and bioball-type set-ups can be beneficial as they allow the bacteria to grow as temperate water temperatures result in the slower metabolisms of species. Not that you should ignore nitrate levels and let them get out of control. Wink


____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on September 9th 2011, 4:02 am

Im hoping that the DSB counter acts the bio nitrate levels so its even more self controlled ..

I might add a weed bed in there later with LED lights ,but DIY chiller and skimmer needs attention first..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on September 9th 2011, 8:53 pm

I would agree with you that the skimmer is a priority.

There is a such thing as temperate chaeto. If you could get a hold of some that would greatly benefit your sump!

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on September 10th 2011, 5:55 am

Do you think temperate skimmer requirements are lower than tropical or about the same ? I was going to make one for about 100 gallons so 35 more than my tank.
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on September 10th 2011, 12:57 pm

I would be inclined to say higher than tropical simply because they generate more output or waste than tropical tanks. Of course that is also dependent on the type of tank and species being kept. However, for yours, especially since you have a puffer, I would say higher.

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 7th 2011, 12:55 am

To update..The DSB is more a refugium now ,I have about 4-5inchs of sand, course top to fine bottom ,I have a mix of live rock and differant Algae and a 8w cfl globe about 4inch from the water surface.Ive got a good collection of copepods and other tiny critters and snails excluding shrimp as even the small ones eat to many copepods. Ive also included my skimmer (cheated and brought one) in the refuge ,Im sure the fine bubbles will help the algae grow faster and this way the bio section gets high oxygenated water and also acts like a bubble trap for the return pump..So far I can see worm tunnels in the sand against the glass and the snails dig deep enough to release the gas build up..And with any luck the refuge will become a great spot for bady pipe fish and other fry..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on October 7th 2011, 9:05 am

Refugiums are good too; especially in temperate aquaria because they provide a constant supply of pods. You are using two skimmers as well? Your tank should be very clean. Very Happy

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 8th 2011, 1:17 pm

remote DSB's have been found to be of little use. While they do provide additional filtration, that space could be put to better use.

A normal DSB should reside in the display where most of the action is.
avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 9th 2011, 12:25 am

J-P wrote:remote DSB's have been found to be of little use. While they do provide additional filtration, that space could be put to better use.

A normal DSB should reside in the display where most of the action is.

I would love to read the reseach on the fact remote DSB"s are of little use can you post a link for me or where you got that info from..

I find it hard to believe that they are of little use considering my levels are perfect and have been since I introduced the DSB ,alot of pods and other critters that would be eaten in the DT are safe to do there work in the DSB and flourish the Algae doesnt get eaten and also flourishes and there is less waste floating around it the DT from the vegies that eat some and let the rest float away and the sand is turned over by snails etc to release the gas build ups, it provides food from the pods who find there way back to the DT and removes waste, I also run the lights on differant timers so the refuges day light is differant to the DT ,The filter and bio section does its job and the DSB makes up for any excess the bio system cant handle.
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 9th 2011, 12:30 pm

You'd have to contact Dr. Ron Shimek directly on that.
He is THE authority on deep sand beds.

Of course each situation is different, but in general terms you will get the most out of the DSB in the display. As for the pods, there are ways around that.. where the pods can breed and be protected from predatory fish in the DT.

avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 10th 2011, 3:58 am

Ok Dr R.Shimek ( His field tropical reefs corals and climate change)he speaks about tropical reef tanks and the fact reefs are surrounded by sand (hmmm whats a remote DSB"s if not a simulation of a real reef when in DT is not) The differance as pointed out to me is the rate of metabolism in a temperate marine tank is slower so the filtration needs like bio balls ( something that tropical reef keepers discourage) work well but in tropical reefs can cause high nitrates ..I still have sand in my DT an inch high front and 2inch high rear and with the extra DSB live rock in both and filter/bio section I have more than enough for my tank ..In other words a sump DSB is not a waste of time effort or waste to the DT it complements and protects the DT from gasses released by worms ,pod etc digging and tunnelling in the sand, it also benifits the sand bead in the DT by introducing critters that are past the planktonic stage and ready to settle in the sand rather than float around and eaten.

In my studies to date I beleive a remote DSB is more benificial to a Temeperate marine aquarium than a DT based DSB ,I can add algae and new sand layers clean etc without disrupting the DT's water clarity I can also add pods etc without a feeding frenzy ,my algae grows and can be rotated from sump to dt and back ,I also believe that having the refuge/DSB on a differant light cycle helps with ph and oxygen levels..Try all that in a DT only DSB..

His artical is a great read but it is based on tropical marine not Temperate and there are a few diffances you have to keep in mind..HTH's
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 16th 2011, 9:51 am

All of what you said is true.

I think we're still going to differ on opinions and applications though.

Just my 2 cents:
The primary function of a DSB is to provide an area that denitrification takes place via anaerobic bacteria. The water traveling through the remote DSB is picking up mostly free floating waste and depositing it there. It is simply not the same as the waste that settles to the bottom of the display.
The water volume traveling through a remote DSB is nver the same volume of water in the DT a) it is usually a smaller unit, and b) the water in the display is NEVER cycled 100% through the pumps regardless of one's GPH.

Remotes are cool as you pointed out and you can do lots of things with them, I just don't see how a remote can do the same job as one in the DT both chemically and mechanically.

Paranoid
avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 17th 2011, 3:57 am

DSB in DT in Temperate marine with slower metabolism rates and higher chance of dead spots causing hydrogen sulphide production ,I guess Im sticking to what works for me ..shell we agree to disagree on this one..

Question are you running a DSB in your temperate DT at the moment ?
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 17th 2011, 7:58 am

LOL!! What temperate? No.. only have tropicals at the moment. We are planning to move and thus I made a sort of come back to the site to learn more about temperate SW set ups.
avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 18th 2011, 8:31 pm

Im planning a new DSB/refuge sump that includes Temperate Mangroves and a foot deep sand bed ,the Mangroves remove even more waste and the root system improves circulation in the DSB then it runs into a second sump full of Algae ,then skimmer tank and bioball section then return .I will still only run a 1-2 inch sand bed in the DT ,this is the system designed by Seamec and is in the research area as part of the biological laboratory working on remote filtration for Aquaculture if or when the system has to be isolated from the ocean waters due to contaminated flood waters etc..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Hero on October 18th 2011, 8:43 pm

Sounds great; definitely sounds like one of the better ways to go in temperate sump/fuge setup. What kind of algae are you going to use and are there links to Seamec's research?

____________________________
i'm from San Diego California Cole
Check out our Information Center, Marine Livestock, & Contribution pages.
avatar
Hero
Site Admin

Posts : 3231
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-04-04
Location : San Diego, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 19th 2011, 1:43 am

http://www.egtafe.vic.edu.au/pages/specialistcentres/seamec/index.htm

Its a collage/education center with Goverment/private funded labs for aquaculture and research for the seafood industry.not many links to there work for good reason im guessing.

Im not sure about the algae yet Im experimenting with an esturine sea grass in the lab system or what I think atm is a type of Cheatomorpha that im using in my aquarium sump now (still waiting for professional confirmation) I think the sea grass with roots into the DSB and a mix of other algae that attach to rocks may work better ,but time will tell..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 19th 2011, 4:06 am

Got this from Dr. Shimek in regards to a remote DSB:
You wrote: "Is it don't works? Waste of time, money and space?"

In short, Yes...

In theory remote DSBs could work, but they need to have a large footprint, at least the size of the display tank, and most hobbyists are not willing to make them that big. Additionally, they need to get all of the detritus, wastes, and so forth from the display tank flushed into them where the animals living in the sand can process this material. In general, while people seem clever enough to put sand in a tank and call it a sand bed, with these remote systems they do not tend to put in sediments with the appropriate particle size distribution, and subsquent to pouring the sand in the tank and adding water to it, they tend to ignore maintaining the animal fauna that makes the sand bed functional.

If the remote bed is large enough, properly constructed, and properly maintained there is no real reason why it shouldn't work.

However, because it is a "remote" sand bed, and generally "out of sight" - it becomes "out of mind" as well. It is typically forgotten about - probably in most cases before it is completed , and it becomes nothing more than a refugium of sorts. Typically a sand tank such as that will function as a denitrator for a while, but relatively rapidly it will become saturated with organic materials and then start to cause problems. And, of course, in these situations, the aquarist states that the "sand bed" is non-functional, when really it is the aquarist that lacks functionality.

It just confirms my beliefs. BUT... since you are in the planning and set up phase there is no reason why you couldn't make it fully functional with the correct grain size and set up.

Wish you luck and don't forget to take pics!
avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by snapperhead on October 19th 2011, 5:25 am

Agree to disagree can we move on ..Im a fan of a remote DSB's and Ive stated reasons why and I disagree with what Ron writes about them and size required ..Other than that the reason for having a DSB are the same reasons ..As Ive said before the articals are directed at tropical aquariums ,I have a Temperate esturine tank with differant filtration needs and I believe that a remote is more benificial to the system..
avatar
snapperhead
Round Stingray

Posts : 172
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-08-22
Location : gippsland lakes

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by J-P on October 19th 2011, 9:04 am

absolutely, yes... Dr. Shimek is only 1 of 3 in this field... and this field is in its infancy.

What YOU find and record will take YEARS for science to duplicate and validate. The truth is that the hobby finds it first, and science confirms / denies it after a course of time. It is not to discourage you from doing so, just to let you know the limitations.

I am excited to be part of this ride as should any others. This is a new venture and should not be ignored.
avatar
J-P
Bay Pipefish

Posts : 59
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-29
Age : 46
Location : Bancroft

http://www.invertplanet.com

Back to top Go down

Re: DSB- deep sand bed bio filter

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum